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Re: [Full-Disclosure] JAP back doored 

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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">"Drew Copley" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dcopley@eeye.com";>&lt;dcopley@eeye.com&gt;</a> writes:

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">If the US forces developers to trojanize their applications,
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">Like everywhere else, ISPs are forced to install wiretapping 
equipment, which is basically the same.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
In the US, criminals - not citizens - may be wiretapped at the ISP level.</pre>
</blockquote>
And how does the US know who is criminal and who not without
wiretapping ?<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> As far as I recall, they are generally tapped at the system level. That way they don't have to worry about - for instance - PGP passwords.</pre>
</blockquote>
Right. Your secret services are just trying to find ways to crack that
keys or to get a backdoor to cryptographic products. No this might not
be legal - but that does not say that it does not happen.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> But, in the US, even criminals have rights against their non-criminal activity being wiretapped. Tappers have to turn their wires off when they discuss non-criminal activity for a set amount of minutes.</pre>
</blockquote>
Just the same in Germany (I'm just not sure about the number of
minutes). Without a judge you are not allowed to wiretap anyone.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap="">Again, I am not bashing Germany, nor Germans. I just disagree that States should be able to trojanize applications and force the developers to keep silent about this. I do not care if it is Germany doing this or Romania. Who is the culpable party is unimportant.</pre>
</blockquote>
I agree with you that states should not be able to trojanize
applications this way. But your posts sound like "this does not happen
in the US" and that is just bullshit. Your administration keeps
prisoners in Guantanamo Bay without granting them any rights. I
wouldn't be too sure that they really care about YOUR rights.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap="">If certain members of the US government felt this kind of activity was okay, I would be opposed to this.</pre>
</blockquote>
Then you better start tpo become active.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> There is no shame in being critical of one's own government, nor of anyone else's... As long as that criticism is based on fact and inspired by pure motives.</pre>
</blockquote>
ACK<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap="">Lastly, if this was not clear, innocent citizens are not criminals.</pre>
</blockquote>
ACK<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> Innocent citizens should not be tapped.</pre>
</blockquote>
In Germany there is a priniple in jurisdication that says "In dubio
pro" wich means something like "as long as you cannot prove someone
guilty he/she is not". But if someone is suspect you need to to prove
him/her guilty. And how do you want to do that without any kind of
supervision ?<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> In some nations they are allowed to be tapped.</pre>
</blockquote>
In germany they are allowed to be tapped if a judge sees enough
evidence. IMHO that is ok.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001c01c368f2$3ce99060$2b02a8c0@dcopley">
  <pre wrap=""> This is not the case in the US.</pre>
</blockquote>
*LOL*&nbsp; FBI and CIA don't exist but are a result of comunistic
propaganda - or what are they good for if they don't tap people as long
as they are not proven criminal ?<br>
<br>
/Felix<br>
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